Hi Darcie. I was doing a search of blogs that I could follow and help possibly spread my blog to more readers. I came across yours and read through this post on crates. I was about to continue my search for other blogs when I got to your commentary on being a pack leader…
Let me first say I’m not a radical believer in all things that Cesar Millan says or does (since I’m guessing you’re referring to his ideas). I don’t believe everything he says or does is perfect or applicable to all dogs in all scenarios. I do watch his show regularly for information, affirmation, and entertainment. But I do think a lot of what he says or does is taken mildly (to wildly) out of context…
I think your argument over the term “pack leader” is too literal. The example that you use regarding going to a deserted land for a month without food is far fetched. I get where you’re going with it, but it’s unrealistic to compare that situation with the daily situations in which we live. In the human world, the adults are the ones who are the “pack leaders” (substitute any term you want: group leaders, parents, heads of family; it’s all the same idea) because they are the ones who are capable of providing food, shelter, wisdom, etc. Since we are humans bringing dogs into our world, they have to live, learn, and respect our rules. Obviously, we have to fulfill their needs as dogs as well, like harnessing their instinctual behavior, meeting their exercise requirements, etc. So we are, in a sense, acting as their leaders. We are providing for them, giving them direction, and helping them thrive in our world.
The “pack” part of it, in my mind, refers to the group an owner and his/her dog makes. That pack can be a mother, father, two kids and a dog, one person and one dog, or a single person with 5 dogs.
I don’t think being a pack leader requires my dog and I do everything together at every moment. Actually as I type this, my dog is in another room where it’s darker and cooler. Dogs do have to learn to be by themselves in a calm state of mind. People who misunderstand that are looking too deep into the idea.
Yes, some of Cesar’s ideas are poorly worded (in my opinion in part due to his incomplete grasp of the English language). And some of it is just brilliant marketing. Most, however, is just state of mind. A leader of any sort (sports coach, U.S. President, company CEO, parents, etc) is strong, confident, and in control. It doesn’t matter what word you put in front of it. You are a leader of your dog(s) as I am of mine. We just choose different terms…Ryan
Dear Ryan, Cesar Millan isn’t the only one out there saying that people can be dog pack leaders, there are tons of people who are mirroring him and who like the phrase and use it all the time. So no, I wasn’t speaking of anyone in particular.
Wasn’t it you on your blog who said that “dogs aren’t people”? You’ve listed leaders of people in your comment, not leaders of dogs.
People tend to follow other people who they believe might make their life better, easier, stronger and of course in the case of children, they have no choice but to follow their parents as long as they are smaller than the adults. When was the last time you heard a parent counting to three to get a kid to do what they were told? That’s not leadership by definition, that’s pressure to conform. And as we all know, people will turn away from their leaders in a single heartbeat if those needs are not being met….is that true leadership? Or is that what I’ve been saying? That it takes some sort of wages to confirm the “pack”? Without the wages, there are no followers.
Pressure, control, stress, containment are not leadership in the true sense of the word. You’re only a leader as long as your dog thinks you’re worth following…if the wages are acceptable.
If you leave your house this morning and, dog off leash, you don’t feed or talk to the dog or make it stay with you, will it stay with you? If the dog really accepts that you’re her leader, nothing will deter her from following your path no matter where you go and will accept that you will make the right choices for her. The leader makes the rules of the pack, ask anyone who uses that term if that’s not what they mean. I see that you have a new camcorder, video tape it for us. Perhaps you can change my mind.
Even Cesar, you brought him up, can’t get his “pack” to follow him as their leader. Watch closely at the old shows, the dogs are going every which way, some even passing him which is something he claims should never happen if the person is the leader. The clip is short and with some camera magic, it does look like they are all following him…if you’re paying close attention to dogs noses, tails and feet, you’ll see that they are not following that guy.
Saying that you’re the leader of your dog doesn’t make it true. Or perhaps, as with people, the dog only sees you as the leader when following suits his needs….which is exactly what I said. – Darcie
If you look closely at his opening clips when he spreads his arms to “beckon the dogs” to follow, his hands are hiding what appears to be treats and some of the dogs are looking up sniffing, so obviously they only follow the food and not him
I think you are pretty much on the money with your view of leadership. I am not sure if you are equating leading people (kids) and dogs as being similar – I really don’t think it is. Looks at the boneheads we people call our leaders and follow. Many of them unstable individuals. A dog would never follow an unstable leader (but his owner might
). I do however want to comment on dogs following Cesar Millan. They do. Who runs with 30 dogs in the mountains and the dogs stay behind/next to him. He has that thing about him. I know people he helped and and they all say the same thing. Dogs respond to his presence alone in a very impressive way. His calm-assertive message and obviously his way of being is what dogs view as leadership – naturally. That is why im my view he could help so many dogs other trainers just recommended to have euthanized. I don’t know the background posts but again, your view of leading dogs sounds very much correct and I did actually not see any difference from I have ever heard Millan say and do. DogTrainer
Dear DogTrainer, have you seen Cesar run with the dogs with your own eyes or are you taking someone’s word for it? If it’s true, why can’t they capture 30 seconds on it on film for the TV show? It doesn’t matter to me if it’s true or not, that’s not the topic of this conversation. My dogs stay with me when I run and walk, it’s not because I’m their pack leader. It’s because we have fun together and I have food when we get home. If the food goes away and I can no longer provide for them, they will look elsewhere for some place to stay alive. The whole conversation started because people think that dogs are pack animals. They aren’t. – Darcie
I have been enjoying reading all of the information on dog packs…Ceasar Milan…etc. It is interesting that while we lived in a rural part of La Paz, Mexico for several years, we saw a lot of dogs roaming the countryside scavenging for food. Generally it would be a lone dog hunting down/scavenging anything that was edible. I do mean anything. A neighbor who owned livestock, cows, goats, sheep, and pigs grazed his animals through out the area. He had a pack of dogs, of mixed breeding and in very poor health which was normal since most all of these dogs never had the luxury of having 2 square meals a day unless they found it themselves. The neighbors dogs helped in the herding, though they weren’t what you would call trained herders. They just followed along behind the neighbor and his livestock. You rarely saw these dogs apart from one another. Two of the dogs hunted together and were an interesting team to watch. The only other time we saw packs of dogs was during breeding season..every 6 mos. Then there would be groups of up to 12 or so in number hanging out together waiting for an opportunity to mate w/one or two bitches.
Having read your blog made me think of what we witnessed in Mexico as to dog packs and I realized that few people here in the states will ever get to witness how dogs live in poor parts of the world. Reflecting on all of this has helped me to re-think my view of dog packs and how our dogs fit into our lives and we into theirs.
I forgot to say Thank You on my earlier post for the various subjects that are discussed on your blog. While I don’t have to agree w/everything, I always enjoy learning and getting different views. Thanks again.
Dear successful Ryan with the power breed dog living on leash, Please don’t write again. I’ve deleted your most recent comment and deleted your others. Thanks. – Darcie