Cesar Millan bitten again
Why do dogs bite?
Cesar Millan was bitten again. I recorded the newest TV show episode and watched it to see if anything is really different in his methods and watched a dog bite him. Cesar claimed it wasn’t really a bite but when dogs bite, they mean it. I watched it happen, it was a bite. Let’s talk about just this one show and what happened and maybe why.
Cesar said early in this season that “America is changing me.” I wanted to see if it was true. (I won’t do business with the advertisers of the show yet, they won’t get my money until positive training reigns in this TV show, I’m not yet in support of it.) I, along with the whole positive dog training world, am praying that Cesar and this show will move to more and more positive methods of training because so many people use the methods for their own dogs at home. Even though Cesar tells his audience over and over in every show, “don’t do this at home”, they still do it and the dogs are the ones who lose. I have my doubts if the show will ever change to a completely positive show. No drama means no audience, no money. TV shows make a boat load of money, money talks loudly, so my guess is that the drama will continue.
Before I go on I want to note something of interest. In this show, Cesar equated dog behavior to horse behavior (he’s been watching the horse whisperer). The reason that doesn’t work for me is because horses are naturally prey animals and dogs are not. Their behavior is not the same for the same reasons. For instance, a horse will give in eventually to predator pressure and accept it. I have yet to see a dog accept predator pressure without fear. Okay, enough of that for now.
I don’t know everything, I’ve told you that many times, and I will probably never know everything about anything in this lifetime about dogs or otherwise. But I know this….if you put pressure on a dog and it has no place to get away from you and doesn’t trust you enough to accept you, it will bite you. Why?
Fear. Fear of the unknown, fear of being harmed, even fear of fear itself, fear feeds on fear. If we think about it for a minute, what would you do if someone was putting pressure on you? A person has you cornered, you don’t know their intentions because they haven’t taken the time to communicate those intentions to you. They are coming closer, putting pressure on you, taking up more and more of your personal space, their body language is intimidating to you, you’ve asked them to back off and they won’t, you are becoming more and more fearful. What do you do? You have three choices. Accept. Change. Separate.
Accept, let them do what they want. Change, pull out a weapon and use it, talk them out of what they have planned, or fight back. Separate, run.
A fearful dog will rarely accept pressure without increased fear, fear leads to a dog bite. Change in this case could be submission which means that the dog gives up all control, or bite, fight back. A highly aggressive dog may submit for now to save his life but pressure won’t change his existing aggression and may increase it for future altercations. Flight is separation, dog tries to get away.
We humans all realize and understand body language, dog and human, whether we are consciously aware of it or not. Granted, some of us are more aware of body language communication than others. I believe that humans are the only ones who try to lie with their body language and, if they’re good at it, they’ve been practicing, other humans won’t see the lie, at least not until it’s too late. For instance, a woman meets eyes with a man, throws her head back so he can see her bare throat. She’s just told him that she’s interested in him. But if she does that same things with all guys for the attention it gets her, she’s lying to this guy. She has no interest in him at all, she’s simply giving herself some pleasure with his attention to her. A man buys a woman a drink so he can sit by her. He’s lonesome and has ulterior motives, the gesture was understood by her that he found her attractive. What she doesn’t know is that he’s been practicing how to get the attention of women, sometimes he gets lucky, sometimes he doesn’t. It depends on how his body language is received by her. He doesn’t find her attractive at all, he’s just using her.
Before I start sounding like I’m going off the deep end here, let me put the dog back into the picture. Dogs understand body language, they are highly conscious of it. If I approach a dog with body language showing I have something for him which will probably make him feel good and my body language is honest, he’s more likely not to bite me. If I am lying, like the flirt, the drink, the attention, the dog is rarely fooled. Now, if the man was in tune with body language, perhaps had learned his lesson before through fearful or bad experiences with women who flirt like that, he wouldn’t give her the time of day. The woman in the bar wouldn’t accept the drink and would probably move away if she’d been burned before, if she was in tune with the body language. We fear what hurts us. We learn how to acknowledge our fear and understanding of other beings, just like dogs do.
Humans have messed up body language reading skills because we’re often devious and so ready to use words instead. When was the last time someone ask you, “Are you mad at me?” and you weren’t? You probably didn’t even know they were in the room but they read your body wrong and reacted to it. The body language was misinterpreted as “you’re mad at me.” It happens because we’re so used to using words and we don’t pay attention to our surroundings so much that we have lost the art of using our body to show the world how we’re feeling. A person might have just had some good news but they hide it behind their normal frown, they don’t wag their tail and let their tongue hang out so they rest of us can see that they’re happy. How are we supposed to “see” how people are really feeling if they don’t show us?
The dog on the TV show tried to get away, separation. It was not going to submit because its level of fear was too high, so no acceptance. It changed the situation, it bit to stop the pressure and it worked. Cesar backed off.
I ran the recording back again and again to watch Cesar’s body language when he approached the dog. I saw that he was afraid, tentative. Now, I don’t know for sure what was going through his human mind but when my body looks like that, takes that posture, it means I am fearful. Did the dog pick up on that fear and then bite? I believe so, yes. In this particular episode, Cesar looked stressed. His body language, his face and eyes, and his words all conveyed stress to me. It seems that the dog must have thought so, too.
When I observe trainers working with aggressive and fearful dogs, I watch the trainer closely. Is the body language loose like Gumby, breathing is regular and even, face and eyes are soft and honest, hands are trusting? That is the trainer who will rarely if ever get bitten. A trainer who has no fear because they are creating no new fear, who is completely trusting and believing in the good nature in the dog, even though that nature may be deeply hidden under the existing fear, will wind up being able to touch and work with the dog without getting bitten. That is the trainer who understands dogs and knows body language. That is the trainer who can alleviate fear in dogs quickly and completely.
I didn’t see the no fear body language in either Cesar or the dog and as I watched. I said it out loud, “Uh oh, that dog is going to bite him.” And the dog did. When the owners were interviewed about what was happening, I’m pretty sure I could still see fear in the woman. Her words did not match her body language. The man did a better job of voicing his feelings and almost everything he said matched his body language. Again, I ran the tape back and forth again and again. She was fearful. He was hopeful but not convinced.
A dog who is pushed to a bite and that bite works for him will more than likely bite again for the same reason.
I wish them the very best with their dogs.
HI and thank you for the interesting article.
I would like to offer another perspective after having studied Cesar’s way intimately for the last 5 years. Also to point out that if I say the word “bike” and you dont know what kind of bike I am talking about we would really not be communicating at all, if you were talking about a bicycle and I was talking about a motorcycle, for instance.
I would offer first, that there is a potential to offer that what is seen as stress (bicycle) is actually intensity of focus (motorcycle. One can be certain about this position because Cesar has been a six time martial arts champion. One cannot do that without being in “no e-motion”, (which is not the same as no-energy).
Next, Cesar didn’t read about the Horse Whisperer, Pat Perelli. He actually spent a significant amount of time with him comparing notes, which was the subject of a Dog Whisperer episode that was aired on April 3rd of this year. They talked about the similiarities and the differences to help people understand how they could bridge species better.
I am a college professor of safety and health who, by using Cesar’s way, have saved about 42 last chance dogs that other professionals could not who were about to be euthanized by owner or rescue. I run an over 3100 member email list of dog woners committed to understand how to safely and effectively apply Cesar’s way to their unique circumstances and environments with another 20,000 who have come in, solved their problems and moved on from this high volume list (our archives are open to the public for use too).
Cesar Millan also supports positive training when it works, asking people to use the least amount of energy to change dogs behaviors. It IS unfortunate that most people will not take the time needed to make those changes.
One challenge is that many people anthropomorphize the dog and assume the bite means “I hate you, you’re traumatizing me, you’re doing something WRONG.”
To the dog, the bite is simply a defense mechanism. Yes, it’s fear. (or aggression). But it’s instinctual; it’s not a thought -out response that means the human is doing something wrong. It’s not personal. It’s not the dog saying to Cesar, “See, these positive only people were right – you really DON’T know what you’re doing!”
Perhaps the most important element often over looked, is that when he does get bitten, Cesar keeps going. He doesn’t pull away, he doesn’t get angry. He shows the dog that the defense mechanism is has previously been using doesn’t work with him…that he is unflappable, that he cares enough to keep going because he is there FOR THE DOG. Once the dog doesn’t have the bite anymore, it has to learn new, more social ways to express itself.
If someone caring for autistic children gets hit by the child, does that mean their “method” is wrong as well? No. They keep going because they know the violence is an automatic response and that it’s a defense they have to get through.
Thank you for providing this forum for discussion. Not only has he not bitten anyone, the problem behaviors are no longer an issue, according to the owners in the ending follow-up recap! CJ
[Thank you for agreeing with me on some things. If you watch that particular episode again, there was no reason for Cesar to be bitten. He put too much pressure on the dog and too much push is asking for a bite. If you watch closely, Cesar was not at his best. Perhaps he was tired, who knows, TV is a tough business, but the dog realized it, too. I'd guess that the people behind the show are pushing for all they can get before the love runs it's course. We all know that they can't let him rest, if he keeps his head down for more than a few months, people forget and will move on to someone else they can fall in love with...bye bye money. I'd say the producers aren't doing the dogs, the audience, or Cesar any favors when they rush his work. Thanks for your note. Darcie]
CJ Anderson
October 4, 2009 at 7:30 pm
Thank you for a very interesting article. I’m so sorry, though, that you are unable to see and understand the difference between obedience training and behavior rehabilitation. I’m sorry you are unable to see and understand the difference between rehabilitating the dog and training the human being in how to interact with the dog. Cesar doesn’t train dogs, he trains people. He rehabilitates dogs with serious behavior problems.
Some of the dogs Cesar rehabilitates are fear aggressive. I’ve seen Cesar use treats, acupuncture (well, he doesn’t use it, but he gets an acupuncturist to use it), flooding, and corrections to help a dog overcome his fears and learn that the world is a pretty safe place after all. Some of the dogs Cesar rehabilitates are dog aggressive. I’ve seen Cesar using exercise, more than anything else, to persuade a dog to ignore other dogs unless it’s invited to greet the other dogs. Some of the dogs Cesar rehabilitates are people aggressive, and I’ve seen him use a variety of tools, including treats, to persuade the dog that people are not out to ‘get’ them.
Cesar’s philosophy of exercise, discipline (which means rules, boundaries, and limitations, NOT punishment), and affection WORKS with dogs because of his calm, confident energy – not because he does anything to hurt the dogs in any way. In fact, Cesar is all about energy.
By the way: you’re right that ‘a dog who is pushed to a bite and that bite works for him will more than likely bite again for the same reason.’ But when a dog bites Cesar, it doesn’t work. And if the bite doesn’t work, the dog will stop biting. And LO! Nothing bad happens and the dog recovers from its fear.
Kaelinda
[You might want to watch some of the most recent episodes on TV again. Slow mo and back that baby up to watch it again. Thanks for your note. Darcie]
Kaelinda
October 5, 2009 at 4:08 am
Darcie,
Thank you for your insightful opinion regarding Mr. Millan’s rehabilatation methods. I have to respectfully disagree, however with your analysis of his methods “harming” dogs causing them to bite. I do agree with you, that many people may “watch” his show, despite the warnings…and try it at home. But this type of ignorance is not limited to The Dog Whisperer…it happens everywhere, everyday!
People purchase crates, traps, electric fences, shock collars, choke chains and tethering chains everyday for their dogs, all of which are equally misused by this same type of ignorance. But when used “properly” they can be beneficial, right? It’s the same for Cesar’s Way. When one understands the philosophy behind Cesar Millan, and applies it properly to their situation…it works!
I’ll introduce myself. I am the director of a no-kill animal welfare organization, that was a kill shelter prior to using Cesar’s Way. When I say “no-kill”, please understand we are about “quality of life” not holding animals in cages for life. Our organization has integrated Cesar’s “Way” without harm to dogs so successfully, that 65% of those seeking our organization to relinquish their dog, are keeping them instead. How? Because we TEACH the pet owner how to understand their dog’s needs, provide them with the knowledge to fulfill those needs and rehabilitate the owner on the proper use of their energy, teaching them calm/assertive leadership without expensive tools used for behavior modification.
The bottom line is, there is NO one way to modify a dog’s behavior. We use all ways, depending on the dog. But Cesar’s Philosophy of “exercise/discipline then affection” is the basis of our rehabilitation program. With rules put into place for the owners, boundaries set for the dog, and the owner understanding both their own and the dog’s limitations is saving lives in our organization. With our help preparing a behavior modification plan, pet owners are finding themselves able to keep their dogs…and have the companion they envisioned when they bought or rescued the dog in the first place. There are no “bad” dogs…only uninformed, good hearted people, who simply…wanted a companion and chose a dog. Different breeds, need different leadership, and some dogs respond better to stronger leadership, than others…but all dogs respond to calm, assertive leadership. And when applied properly it works!
With millions of dogs being killed in our country each year, there just seems to be bigger and better things one could focus on changing that would be far more beneficial to saving lives, but I do respect everyone having the right to voice their opinion, even if it is limited in fact and based more on rumors and observation. I would think it would be far more beneficial to expend the energy and expertise with one’s local shelter and rescue staff to help “train” them to understand how to “rehabilitate” dogs and save lives, wouldn’t you?
It’s easy to sit on the sidelines and critique those who are actually doing the rehabilitation work, but it would be more beneficial if there was alot more “action” and less “talk” by those who enjoy the open dialogue of opposition for a man’s methods, who, by the way is saving lives!
I have met many interesting people in this business over the years, some of whom I have agreed with, some of whom I have not. But what I have never understood and am still open to learning, is why those who profess that “positive” training and/or reinforcement is the only way to rehabilitate a dog, rarely practice “positive” behavior with their own actions. What is “positive” in criticizing others without offering alternative solutions (that work), or be willing to step up and show at the same level as Mr. Millan, another way to save lives?
Until we, as individuals, begin to work together, accepting that all ways are good that doesn’t harm the dog, millions of dogs will continue to die, needlessly, as victims of human ignorance, human pride and self-perserverance. There is nothing “positive” in that for me. Just my observations from years of experience in the industry.
I invite you to open dialogue with our organization to share ideas, methods, and practices…to save even more lives!
Respectfully,
Linda R. Blakely
[Thank you, you've stated my opinion as well as I have: People who are watching TV are not heeding the warnings not to do this at home and their dogs are biting them because of it...that's part of why you're seeing more dogs in rescue. Please don't stop with this one post, read all of my blog regarding Cesar and everything else I write about. When you do that, I think you'll agree that I'm not sitting on the sidelines. Thanks for your note. I appreciate it. Darcie]
Linda R. Blakely
October 5, 2009 at 3:53 pm
Darcie, I have to again respectfully disagree. Cesar Millan is NOT why we are seeing more dogs into rescue. Irresponsible pet ownership, irresponsible breeders, inexperienced shelter and rescue staff are WHY we are seeing more dogs into rescue. It’s about getting “money” or “getting them a home”. It’s a collective mindset of “it’s better than” (meaning death) that causes shelters; rescues mismatching dogs and their owners. It is NOT because people are trying to correct their dog’s behavior. Dogs are NOT humans, they are animals. And while we love them a great deal, OUR needs are more often what we are fulfilling, NOT theirs! I DID read the rest of your blog, and I’m delighted that you are involved in the industry, but I didn’t see where you have committed to working with rescues and shelters helping them correct what you perceive as a problem?I can assure you I will continue to write, but I support Cesar Millan’s Philosophy, both professionally, and personally. I support it, because I have the experience in using it and the statistics in our organization to prove it works. I can say this from fact, not opinion…and encourage others to step outside their own box, and open their minds to a new way of thinking that is more universal. I wish you the best in what you do. I’m sure you also save lives…and that’s what we are all here to do. Linda
[Dear Linda, Let's just look at one aspect of your argument: "Irresponsible pet ownership". (I've already written about this a lot, and about the others in your list as well.) Now let me agree with you about irresponsible pet ownership. It proves my point exactly and I've written about it again and again, you know I have if you've read my blog. Those are the people who are watching Cesar's TV show, by the millions! Those are the people who are dismissing the warnings not to do this at home and those are the people who doing it anyway. They use the methods as they see them on TV, when their dogs don't get better and most often get worse, they return the dog to rescue or have it put to death. Death usually happens after the dog bites someone. Instead of being sued or bitten again, they choose to have the dog killed. I've talked to hundreds of these people personally, can you imagine how many don't have someone to talk to or don't because they don't want someone blaming them for what they've done to the dog? They are good people, they mean well, they didn't mean to do bad things to the dogs. They were only doing what they'd seen on TV because it looks like a miracle. I'm just curious for those who will throw rocks at those of us who would rather see positive training prevail, how many articles would we have to write in favor of dogs, how many dog supplies that don't harm dogs would we have to sell as opposed to those stores who sell all that junk, how many training tips that work would we have to share, how many dogs would we have to rescue successfully before you think we're doing anything to help? Dogs don't have to be hung on the end of a leash or get pushed so far that they bite to change their behavior. Please take a few breaths before you reply. Written words are so easily taken the wrong way. Capital letters means yelling in the virtual world, I'm sure you weren't yelling, only making a point. I accept that you have had good luck with the methods you've learned from Cesar. Many, many, many people haven't. What would I like to see? I'd like to see behavior changing that doesn't need a written warning attached to it. I write from a very quiet and loving place and I'm very soft spoken, so if you can, read this email with the soft words and caring that go along with them. Thanks for writing. Darcie]
Linda
October 6, 2009 at 12:49 am
Dear Darcie, I’ll try to keep this as short as I can (being a writer, I tend sometimes to over-write!). I have watched the Dog Whisperer since episode 1. I was instantly impressed by Millan’s sincerity, passion and his philosophy — not just exercise, discipline and then affection, but of calm assertive energy. Over the years, I have seen Cesar evolve to include many different techniques — including classical conditioning and reward-based training (or positive reinforcement). I do believe, however, that pure positive reinforcement cannot cover every type of canine rehabilitation. There are times when physical corrections (touches, not blows) and leash corrections are necessary. There are some dogs who respond better to a “leader” personality than to weak energy. I also saw the episode where Cesar worked with Pat Parelli — not watching the “horse whisperer” but working WITH him. And while predator and prey animals do have different behaviors, ANIMALS have similar responses.
I live with a dog and 5 cats. The dog is a hound, a prey-driven animal. The cats are also predators, but to a dog, cats are also prey. When I correct my dog for chasing my cats, I know that my cats’ lives could be at stake. I can’t just reward my dog every time she does NOT chase the cats. I claim my cats and admonish her when she goes after them or when any kind of altercation starts up. Through using Cesar’s energy and philosophy, more than any specific techniques, I have helped both dog and cats learn to co-exist with minor flare-ups — which I address. I do appreciate the fact that, unlike most critics, you see Cesar as someone who is often under pressure — and I don’t believe the pressure comes solely from the production crew. I believe that people expect him to perform miracles with their dogs — and the beauty is, he so often does! But sometimes his initial reading of a dog needs revising. And watching him learn from the dog what the dog needs is also a lesson for all of us. To me, Cesar Millan is a life changer. He is not only someone who intervenes in cases where people are on the brink of putting their animals down, showing them how to change the behaviors in themselves and their animals, he is also someone whose philosophy has changed my life for the better and has awakened in me a desire to help animals who are not fortunate enough to have the dog whisperer come to them.
I watched last week’s episode with the shelter dog Sissy and was moved to tears. And I also noted that Cesar practiced techniques that were straight from the positive reinforcement textbook — ones that we have just started using at my animal shelter! I like the fact that Cesar evolves and expands — and yes, I do believe that pure positive training is not the be all and end all. I feel that you in many ways are more open to dialogue than many of Cesar’s critics. I hope that you keep watching his show and learn to see some of what those of us who believe he is doing good see. Thanks for the opportunity to respond, Jackie, Leicester, NC
[Dear Jackie, Let me start with yes, I know that Cesar and Pat spent some time together, I've watched Pat in person, too...semantics. Horses and dogs are different, I've trained both and I'll stick to that. I'll say it again, I have nothing against Cesar Millan. What I do know is that hundreds of people have talked to me telling me that they used his methods as they saw them on TV and their dogs started biting, many of those dogs wound up going back to rescue or being killed. Don't you see, it's not people like you who know something about dogs, it's the people who don't know anything about dogs that are causing the problems for the dogs. They mean well, I know they do, I listened while they cried about their dogs. Dismissing the warnings on the TV show can cause harm to dogs and to the people they live with and come in contact with. If the TV show is going to continue to show things that the average dog owner shouldn't be using, they are guilty of part of the problem. Cesar's methods have been around for centuries, nothing he's teaching is new. I've been around for a while and in my experience and those of other positive trainers, he's not doing anything that the old time trainers haven't already done...yet. I have seen that he's trying to be more positive. I hope that he continues that. I am glad that he hasn't hung a dog yet in the new season, at least not that I've seen, it would mean that he is trying to change his ways like he said earlier this season. A dog can be trained and behavior changed with purely positive training. We can agree to disagree about that. Thanks for reading The Dish and for writing, I appreciate it very much. Darcie]
Jackie
October 6, 2009 at 12:08 am
Thank you Darcie for providing a forum that is calm and balanced. It gives me the opportunity to allow me to share my experiences.
The past 12 years, I have worked with larger rescue organizations as a volunteer, and 11 years ago I became involved with the German Wirehaired Pointer breed purely by accident. With our adoption of two GWP’s, we found ourselves more involved with the breed. Finding out there were no official rescue organizations purely for the breed, we became a licensed shelter, incorporated, and went on to obtain our 501c3.
Many of us involved in rescue used methods similar to CM, such as brisk walks, bringing a dog with unknown history allowing them to settle in before we began to work with them, ect. Implementing obedience, sitting to wait for food, humans exiting the doors first, ect. When we saw Cesar in OK in 2006, his seminar was a small affair, we got to be up close and personal. We were able to ask a lot of questions, and what we found were the basic fundamentals of handling our rescue dogs in a structured manner. Rules, boundaries, and limitations…exercise, obedience, and then affection after the work was done. This is a strong working breed that appreciates this concept. Unfortunately, owners try to mimic those they see on TV in many areas. Not recognizing their limitations as owners, and not seeking out resources in their locale. We get in many dogs that are simply confused, do not understand their place, and they simply need direction. We use many methods to work with our dogs, foundation is Cesar’s Methodology, it works with our breed very well. We have rehabilatated over 250 GWPs from shelter environments and placed them into homes with structured schedules, exercise, obedience/discipline, and then affection in that order.Being somewhat of a rare breed, until recently with two larger puppymill raids, I feel we have been able to help many dogs, including the very fearful reactive animals that have suffered from their environment. As far as dogs biting, owners do not know their limitations, do not heed warnings, do not seek out professionals in their area. As a licensed Presenter with (snip), I present seminars to children about dog safety/dog bite prevention. The misinformation out there is staggering. It is no wonder we are seeing a rise in dog bites.
People do not take time with their dogs, do not understand that an animal needs the mental stimulation each day within/outside of their environment. I do see more people today however walking their dogs, and I attribute this to Cesar Millan. The awareness of activity, bonding through working with their dogs, and providing a calmness with their dogs is key. If you poll the experienced breeders within our breed, the resounding word is always “Leadership”. I strongly feel this has been enhanced with Cesar’s methodology, combined with other methods that do not harm the dog, but allow the animal to learn trust. I feel many within our breed have been softened with the awareness of CM. As force break methods have been the mainstay of training within our breed from some. Many dogs simply could not take it. Thus they come to us in rescue, for “resetting” and then rehoming. There are those of us that “do”, and many that “claim to do” rehabilatation of shelter animals. Yes, I have been bitten two times when working with abused/unsocialized GWPs, and I have learned by my mistakes. Never more than a scratch, and usually from fear. But it goes with the territory. I can usually read the dogs well, and know my limitations with each individual dog. Taking “time” and patience/calmness with reactive fearful dogs does require positive methods, and we as a group tailor our methods to the needs of the dog we are working with within our homes. GWPLady
[Dear GWPLady, All good dog trainers and human being raisers, positive, traditional or otherwise, will demand and encourage the walking and good behavior before rewards, whatever that reward might be. Rewards are every harmless thing from a treat to an open door, a hug to an off leash walk in the woods. Discipline is every harmless thing as easy as no open door, no hug, no freedom. In my opinion, alpha rolls, which is a man made thing, hanging and too much pressure have no place in dog training or in the world of happy human beings. There are more and more dog trainers in our collective of dog lovers, I'd guess that's a big reason you're seeing more dogs walking. It's a good thing. 'Positive training' is often misunderstood, maybe I need to coin a new name for it. Positive training means communication, an agreement between the human being and the dog, and no harm comes to the dog. If the dog does not agree to work with you, you're done. (Sad to say, there are people like that, too.) Again, I have nothing against Cesar Millan. It's the "miracle" aspect of the TV show using alpha rolls, pressure and hanging as training to correct behavior that get so many armchair trainers in trouble. Thanks for writing. It sounds like you're doing very good things. Darcie]
GWPLady
October 7, 2009 at 6:57 am
Dear Darcie, Being a Professional Behaviourist and also an owner/Pack Leader of 15 dogs living in my home, I am a supporter of the good Cesar’s Way – his philosophy does help many understand dogs so much more.
I completely agree with the “don’t try this at home”, as the show clearly states and as Cesar does in his books too. A professional diagnosis is always necessary particularly with aggression, the times I have been called out to fear aggression and really it is dominance and vice versa! So the wrong rehabilitation methods are being used as the diagnosis is not correct, any such methods are not just Cesar’s – they are used by many professionals and are accepted behaviour modification methods.
There is a place for positive reinforcement, but that is exactly what it is – reinforcement, in my experience this way alone cannot be used with a very aggressive dog else the aggressive mind-set is being rewarded! Bribes and distraction do not rehabilitate, potentially creating a false sense of security. Many positive only trainers will not take on such aggressive cases, I do and rarely bitten in all these years yet have received a couple of mis-directed bites before now while handling a dog in such an aggressive state. Positive carries risks too – many times I see cases where the owner has been told to get a person whom the dog is afraid of to give them a treat, the dog takes the treat then goes on to bite the person, as the mind-set was still in fear aggressive state thereby reinforcing aggression! Such counter-phobic training I stop immediately in such a case!
Positive reward based training is not dog psychology rehabilitation, the first is human psychology applied to dog, the latter is using their own language to bring about conditioning change. In my pack I have many different breeds who have recovered from both fear and dominance aggression, we follow Cesar’s Way philosophy successfully. I am not a trainer, I am a Behaviourist who rehabilitates dogs, I have not obedience trained my pack yet they will follow me anywhere anytime, through trust and respect for their leader.
In my experience no one way fits all, this I believe Cesar teaches us well, sometimes I have to come up with a different approach as the most often used ones are not working, any way that does not harm the dog or the people! This way I go on to save lives that no-one else will take on.
I find Cesar an inspiration, we have 15 dogs here now as their forever home, the pack is now larger as Cesar showed the way. Cesar is not a dog trainer, he rehabilitates dogs and trains people, he uses the method most suitable to rehabilitate (not train) the dog after thorough assessment, yet will change a way if it is not working incorporating positive as well as appropriate. He uses the dogs own language, dogs do not bribe eachother or offer treats to stop aggression, energy and touch correction I see used by balanced dogs to stop such insecure aggressive behaviour enabling a dog to learn to calm themselves and learn acceptable pack behaviour which is zero aggression, for example.
We too live in a very quiet, calm place at the beach, yet many of my pack formerly aggressive now work with me on cases as well as help rescues. Way back using positive only we still had in-pack fighting and some still suffering with aggression, using the dogs own communication and being their leader has ended all such problem behaviour, we use positive as appropriate. Yet I add my own dogs who work cases are not human trained to do so, they model from more experience pack members, they follow my lead and trust me totally they can read what I need from them without words.
Thank you for sharing your views and enabling a share back too, I love to learn from others as well even if I do not completely agree there is always something I am open to learn and take with me on this journey we all share to help save dogs lives. My eyes alone cannot read what another is feeling/being like, especially via a TV, that would be wide open to my own interpretation, only if there in-person can I truly read the body language and energy to make an informed understanding about another human being, eyes and ears alone can mis-lead in my experience. Often what one person does can be read as perhaps a fearful approach, yet only that person knows if it is fearful or not, no 2 people use the same body language to mean the same thing, humbly I add that to me generalising in such matters can again be mis-leading – just like with dogs we too are unique, I have been assessed by different body language experts, using the same body language they had 2 opposite interpretations as they were not reading my energy too! Best wishes from over here in the UK. Suzie
[Dear Suzie, It puzzles me so much when people talk about positive training as treat giving and reinforcement. Maybe the confusion about that is because there are some who use positive training only in that manner. Maybe I need to come up with a new name for it. LOL! Positive training, as I speak about it, means no harm to the dog, an open communication, an agreement between human being and dog. Granted, I do believe that some people will never be able to work with dogs with behavior issues because the dog won't agree, that wouldn't matter if it was Cesar Millan or Joe Blow. If the dog does not agree, you're done. Is that trust or lack of respect? Both probably. Dogs don't alpha roll each other; that's a man made word for a thing that doesn't exist. Dogs don't hang each other with a leash or teeth to get the behavior that they want. I agree with you that we should learn to communicate with dogs using their own language but even if we don't dogs are much more clever than we are. Dogs are used to "talking" to people, they are masters of body language. Take a person who knows nothing about dogs, doesn't even know there is such a thing as "dog language", and watch him bond with the dog anyway. The dog follows him around, doesn't cause problems, and is a perfectly well mannered dog. I know this still happens even in these days and it's truth. I was just a kid with dogs and horses following me around and doing tricks for me simply because I asked them to. I didn't know there was such a thing as dog trainers much less behaviorists. Some people are always going to have great luck living with their dog no matter what the dog's problems were when he came to live with them. Some people can take a perfectly well balanced, well behaved dog and turn it into a fearful, aggressive, biting machine. This is my point with the TV show. My whole point with talking about Cesar Millan is not that he is a bad man doing bad things, that will be for someone besides me to judge after all of the evidence is in. My point is that the people who watch the TV show and then use the methods they think they see are causing biting dogs. Now is that their fault? Certainly, sort of. But don't you see? It's the power of TV. It looks like a miracle and they want that. If I had one wish for this year, I would wish that all the old episodes of The Dog Whisperer would be taken out of the viewing line up. They won't do it because there's too much money to lose but how many dogs would it save? Thank you so much for your note. It's wonderful to talk to people who are savings the dogs and have very good luck at it. Fifteen! Not everyone can or should do that. Bless your heart. Darcie]
Suzie
October 7, 2009 at 10:31 am
Hi Darcie, Thanks for your reply I appreciate talking with you. I do understand what you are saying about positive and in that respect we do agree, the term in dog pyschology is positive reinforcement which is used to mean rewarding the preceeding behaviour, perhaps that is where the confusion lies, a new name would be a great idea, let me know!lol From within a pack, dogs do “alpha roll” to a higher ranked dog – though it is not foreced it is a sign of respect from a lower ranked dog, one of my JRTs is often dropping onto back rolling over to my Dobey who is only giving off energy and a look to gain that show of respect from a lower rank! I have also seen dogs pin down another to stop a behaviour, not aggressively, purely it seems to block the mind from carrying-on acting out! As ever dog psychology is not an exact science, I learn from watching my pack everyday. They also shoulder bump, “air bite” to stop acting-out or nudge with their mouths. All non-aggressive simply communication using energy, body language and touch. As for individuals copying, well imo that is their responsibility no one controls another person. I support Cesar, his aim of education and helping save many many dogs who would not be here today otherwise, the foundation does great charity work too. 15…yes is rather a lot yet they are last chance dogs who are alive and well in my home today, I am not saying everyone can or should do it, I can so I do and I will go on doing this so long as I can as I learn so much from sharing my journey with them. I do see what you are saying about the power of TV, but without that power so many would not be aware and helped through Cesar’s philosophy, inspired like I was to save more and more lives. This is just one of the many positive impact of the DW show on TV, if others choose to mis-interpret or follow when clearly told not to, then that should not cause the rest of us to suffer by losing such an inspirational programme, in my humble opinion, I know lives are saved because of the show, there are 5 in my pack who without Cesar’s Way would not have found me. Again, good to talk with you I appreciate your thinking and being open, for the greater good in my experience I hope to see the DW show go on for a long time yet. lol.Suzie
[Suzie, A dog or a human being leading with true and genuine honest strength and respect will have no need to hurt another dog or person. Let's don't confuse anybody here. An 'alpha roll' done by a human is a person grabbing the dog by the neck and forcing it to the ground onto it's back. 'Alpha roll' is a man made word for something that doesn't exist. I understand and believe that the person who came up with the name years ago has tried and tried to correct the assumption that he made. The naked eye was incorrect in what he was seeing, in these days of video and slo mo rewinds, it's easy to see that dogs don't do it. Dogs don't do alpha rolls. A dog might take another to the floor using it's teeth but the dog who did it is not the leader or well respected. A dog who submits willingly to a another dog or a person will go down long before teeth or hands come close. When was the last time you saw someone takes Dad or Mom's chair in the living room and didn't jump up as soon as they returned to it? Mom and Dad didn't have to use force to get anyone to give up the chair. It's sort of the same thing. There is never a need for violence or abuse in dog training, not at any level. If you have taken your dogs down like that, they will always be watchful of your hands. That is not respect, that is fear. A respected leader doesn't have to use force to get results. I'm glad that you're finding goodness from Cesar's training without harming your dogs. Wouldn't it be nice if that stuff that does cause harm was left on the editing room floor and only the good stuff was shown on TV? Then there would be no need for warnings and disclaimers. Everyone could use the good stuff because there is no harm in the good stuff. Think about the good that would come of that. Thanks again for writing. Hugs to you and yours. Darcie]
Suzie
October 7, 2009 at 1:15 pm
It’s sad how many people still adhere to corrective training methods and make claims that we positive trainers are somehow dilusional to think positive methods can help dogs – they do the same, only with corrections! They might do well to watch someone like Turid Rugaas in action and really watch how dogs interact with one another. The true pack leader never uses force to prove his status. A truly “dominant” dog, is hardly ever visibly dominant, and may be mistaken by most as submissive. The dominance is in the presence, it’s an attitude, it’s their very being. People can be the same way. You don’t have to be a bully to be successful and looked up to by others. There’s no need for corrective methods to continue and continue to harm dogs.
All you naysayers with your “tough breeds” in need of strong leadership, why can’t you accomplish that by asking a dog to wait for things, and using body blocking to prevent reward? Example: dog wants out, but as soon as you touch the leash he jumps all over barking. Corrective methods say you should pop the collar, throw a chain, do something to punish the “wrong” behavior. Problem is, what if he isn’t wearing a collar or you have nothing to throw? Well simply put the dog learns there is a loophole. What is so hard about closing the door and walking away until he is calm? If you are too busy to train the dog, don’t take it out on the dog by using corrections thinking it’s a quick fix. Positive experiences are much more hard wired and easier to train – yes, even with aggressive dogs.
If I could only remember the book or the author, but she aquired an abused highly aggressive border collie. Not once did she ever correct him when he lunged at her trying to get out of the crate. Instead she simply clsoed the door and walked away til he was calm. She chronicles her progression and by using simple reward (not food – open doors, access to rooms, etc) she totally rehabed the dog. It took a long time, over the course of a year or more. But by never pushing him to his breaking point, she allowed him to choose new reactions, non-aggressive ones, that stuck with him for life.
Corrective training like Cesar uses teaches people it’s ok to quick fix a behavior that was years in the making. And unfortunately the aggression remains, it just gets filed away for later use. Thanks to people like Darcie (and I like to think myself included!) we can show people that aggression leads to aggression, positive training creates a positive atmosphere all around. Think, dogs who respond to commands because they fear retribution vs those who truley wish to please. I can’t think of any other way I would train my Aussies than with compassion and patience!!
Lindsay, Animal Behavior Graduate and successful foster mom to many troubled pooches
Lindsay
October 9, 2009 at 6:01 pm
I’ll keep my comments brief. Although I respect Cesar for what he’s done to save unwanted dogs from shelter deaths as seen in his pack of misfits, I will never “touch” or hang choke or flood any dog ever again. I learned to train back in 1988 when I was a teen with my first dog, an American Eskimo, who was taught in this classic (abusive) Koehler method of dominating and alpha rolls and it ruined him and every other dog I applied it to. After I statrted taking in shelter & stray American Pit Bull Terriers for rehoming, I realized that the old fashioned leash correction & dominance theory methods resulted in “breaking” what little trust these dogs had left in people and most of them shut down at a certain point in training, although I was far from being what I’d consider negative energy or abusive, just “the pack leader”. Once I switched to truly positive reinforcement training in the methods of Jean Donaldson, Ian Dunbar, Patricia McConnell, etc, I was finally able to get the results that I wanted reliably without the side effects of anxiety and behavior regression in ALL of the pit bulls that I worked with. I no longer have to pop the leash or kick — excuse me “touch”—- my dogs on the flank when we pass other dogs on the street as demo’ed by Millan. I don’t feel that it takes any longer training-wise to work with positive methods vs punitive methods, especially when you count the time that you probably have to try another punitive method when the unwanted behavior manifests again. I am not a patient person, I have to work hard on discipling myself to be upbeat, patient and consistent to help my dogs learn to be self controlled, adoptable family members. The best part is that positive only based training has spilled over into my interactions with my teen/preteen kids and we have a much better human relationship using positive methods than using punishment. Sure, you have to fade out using treats with lure & train but I can almost guarantee that you’ll have a less anxious dog that is always thinking up ways to “please”. Clicking & treating for dog aggression has always trumped flooding in my household. Your mileage may vary, as they say.
Wendy
Wendy
October 15, 2009 at 9:45 am
Dear Darcie
Clear, concise, superb piece of writing. Thank you.
Confident delivery of a message, even on TV, does not make that message into ‘evidence’.
My caseload bulges at the seams with flawed behaviour interpretations and inappropriate followup methods courtesy of TV shows, in particular ‘The Dog Whisperer’.
Compelling TV drives a following, those familiar words again… leadership, and compulsion.
There are kinder ways. Let’s spend our time promoting these.
Karen (also a ‘Martial Arts champion’ and believe me, it has very little to do with dog training and nothing to do with toughness).
Karen Wild, Member of the APBC
October 15, 2009 at 10:15 am