The Dish by Darcy

Dear Darcie, “…there is no “positive training” in nature, just “force.” Chris (see Chris’s entire comment below)

Dear Chris,

What! Who told you that there is no positive training in nature? Anyone and everyone who spends any time in the great outdoors will tell you with great admiration that almost all creatures train their babies and even other animal’s babies with gentleness and kindness. They even treat what might be lunch at another time with positive and gentleness. Most definitely they do it with positive training. Including wolves and domestic dogs. Even our vultures do it! They even teach their children to fly. It can be pretty funny when one of them is going the  opposite direction in the sky circle and Daddy vulture turns the child gently around so they are all flying the same direction. I can just hear him yelling, “That’s a boy! Now you’re doing it! Who hee! What a kid!” (See www.thedomehome.com for photos of my sweet darling little vultures with a face that only a mother could love. We have another one this year. She’s growing up fast.)

The dog who is “forcing” your dog or other dogs to do something at the dog run is a bully, not a pack leader. The dogs at a dog run are not a pack, they are a bunch of dogs who were brought together to “play”. Some are pretty good at playing nicely, some are not. Some have no manners at all, those are the ones who on first greeting and before the rules of play are set, bite, run over the other dogs, jump on heads and sniff without permission. If left alone, they will not be following that dog home for dinner.

Dogs who are respected by other dogs, and there are those, don’t have to force another dog to do anything. When you see two dogs fighting or pushing each other around, it’s usually the two that don’t have a lot of pull with anybody, they don’t know where they belong, the don’t have any confidence. In the human world, they would be known as the two idiot guys who show off or think have to prove their strength to impress someone by hitting each other. Or they simply don’t know how to act in public. A bully might force you to do something you don’t want to do for a while but don’t turn your back too soon, they do not like you. [Best example, a bad human boss. Lot's of people have to do what he or she says or they'll get fired, but they don't like that person for one minute.] Normal dogs do not follow dogs who hurt them.

Look around at a person in your life, someone you have the utmost respect for. That person is more than likely a gentle, solid, hard working person who is loved and respected by a lot of people, they say good things about that guy or gal and they’ll follow them anywhere. When was the last time that that person yelled or hit or bit or rolled somebody on the floor by the neck? Dogs are like people that way. Dogs don’t follow a leader who forces them to comply. Leaders rarely lead by force. Check out history for the strongest leaders and their most loyal followers.

The guy in the bar who makes the most noise and clobbers the other guys isn’t the leader. He’s the guy who has low self esteem, can’t handle his liquor, and gets into bar fights. Nobody follows him when he leaves, they all look at each other and shake their heads. What an idiot. A leader doesn’t have to fight to prove he’s a leader, he sits quietly enjoying his drink, talking to his buddies and goes home with the girl he came there with. And no one takes his stool when he gets up to go to the bathroom. It’s respect.

Dogs will comply when someone forces them if they have no other choice…it’s called survival. Read my predator prey article at The Dish. The dog who is forced by a human will never trust the hands of the person who hung them, choked them, or put so much pressure on them that they had to comply. It’s an unhappy dog.

It’s the same in nature. The male or female in charge of seeing that the pack or the herd doesn’t go extinct doesn’t have to bully or force anyone to do anything. In wild animals, it’s generally a fairly quick fight if there is a change in leadership. One on one to see who is the strongest and the smartest to continue to lead. Animals who fight for fight’s sake or have to use force to get their way risk getting hurt. Getting hurt means death. Animals in their right minds know that if they are hurt they could die. Staying healthy is the key to survival in every species.

You’ll have to prove to me that domestic dogs use force to take over leadership or train. I’ve lived with dogs my whole life and I’ve never seen it happen in a normal household. There are dogs who don’t get along with each other but that’s a whole ‘nother story.

Back to your comment about there being no positive training in nature. I think the most incredible example of positive training in nature is video of a killer whale teaching it’s baby to hunt. The killer whale takes a young penguin off the shore line so gently that it doesn’t get hurt. Mom swims back out to the baby killer whale and lets the penguin go. The penguin swims for shore as fast as his little flippers can go. The baby killer whale learns to follow and catch the penguin. Mom takes it gently away from baby and with her her mouth gently lets it go far from shore. Again and again and again. Again letting it go for baby to “hunt”. After about an hour of this positive training, the mother killer whale gently, gently, gently takes the young penguin back to shore, sets him on his feet, watches while he toddles away, then returns to her waiting baby whale. They swim away. The penguin toddles to his cousins to tell them of his great escape. I believe that is a National Geographic video and it’s been around for years and years. That’s the kind of stuff I think they are really good at. (I’ve seen the same thing happen only the penguin gets eaten by the baby at the end. That’s positive training with treats.)

Read my posts about the TV show again. What I have said again and again is that some people who watch the show and use the same pressure, hanging, pulling and jerking techniques on their own normal dogs that he uses on aggressive dogs are causing problems in their dogs. Let’s agree though, that the pressure techniques used on the show are not just on the aggressive dogs, they are used on the fearful dogs, too. There is often a huge difference between aggression and fearfulness although fearfulness can lead to aggression quickly if the dog isn’t handled with patience and care.

By the way, dogs don’t really live in packs. They are singular in nature and usually when left to their own devices, would rather raid garbage cans or eat carrion for food than chase wild or domestic animals…maybe rabbits and mice but that doesn’t usually take more than one dog at a time….to kill and eat for dinner. It’s a rare occurence that you hear about a dangerous dog pack out wrecking havoc on the neighborhood or the livestock. It makes a good movie but it’s not real.

And there is no such thing as a dog alpha roll as it’s been taught to you. That was a made up thing by man to sell books. The dog on the bottom goes there on his own, the dog on top doesn’t force him down with teeth and strength. You have to get out more and watch more dogs. (I’m teasing you a lot in this reply, I know it won’t hurt your feelings because you didn’t hurt mine.)

We put dogs into situations where they learn to live with each other. See Cesar’s compound and my living room for the proof of it. See the science about dogs not living in packs, I’m not making it up. You might find feral dogs living in numbers in the same areas but they rarely form a pack to kill for dinner and they usually don’t look all that good so they aren’t taking very good care, are they? I can’t remember the last time I saw a documentary or in person a domestic dog living and operating in a pack and doing well as a “pack”. It’s because they don’t have pack leaders to make sure everything is good for every member. (I don’t know everything, can you get me some examples of a dog pack living and working and doing well together without a human to feed and house them? I’m open for the education.)

I never said that Cesar didn’t do anything positive, I said that I wished he would do everything positive. There’s a big difference. By the way, Cesar is not the original dog whisperer, that would be Paul Owens.

You might want to read all of my articles on Cesar, I think maybe you haven’t because you don’t seem to have the whole grasp of what I’ve written. Take a look here at The Dish for all the articles. Read them all and that should give you a better feeling for what I’m saying.

I remain on the dog’s side. Jerking, hanging, over exercise, bullying, and metal collars and choke leads are not necessary to train a dog or change it’s behavior. Watch some of the other TV shows for a while, the ones that use only positive training. It’s pretty amazing stuff.

Now that you’ve brought it up, you really don’t see the affection at the end of the show do you? Why is that? I am curious why the TV show doesn’t show you the affection from the dog to the man at the end. Doesn’t it seem that would be most important thing in the whole process? That the dog respects, loves and will desire companionship with the man? Isn’t that what all of those people are striving for with their dogs? A dog who will love them after all of this training to be a good dog?

Your letter was well written. I appreciate the view, I just don’t agree with what you think I’ve said.

Nope, you didn’t upset me or hurt my feelings. I love a good argument.

[Just a note. Another person wrote to me, I won't post the message, it was rude, but in effect, he said that I hate Cesar because he came to America illegally, had some huge help getting famous, turned his back on those people who are suing him, and stole the name The Dog Whisperer from Paul Owens. That's just silly. I don't hate Cesar or anyone else and anybody who knows me would laugh at the thought of it. I don't care where he came from or how, that's his business. I don't know any more about the start of his fame or his relationships than anyone else, only what I've read. So there! LOL  ]

Like I said, prove me wrong with facts.  I’m open to the education. Thanks.

Darcie

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I’m sorry it’s taken me so long to update this post. I did post my gut reply to Writer but I thought it was too harsh, she seems to be someone who is obviously an innocent in the dog world, so I deleted it. I thought about it for a few days and here’s my answer. I’d deleted her reply to my first post but it went something very much like this.

Writer wrote back almost right away to apologize for hurting my feelings (she didn’t), saying that she, yes, she says she’s a female, still loves Cesar Millan because the dogs on his show are so happy to have someone to finally understand them. She says that she does know a dog’s body language and is amazed at how relaxed the dogs on the show become after Cesar works with them for a short period of time. She says that she is an author and sometimes writes about dogs because she loves them. She has not been behind the scenes of the show or at the compound, she would have told me, she skipped that part in her reply.

I disagree heartily that she understands dog body language. Study books and video of dogs playing, when they are uncomfortable, and when they are being “punished” for something. Watch at your own dog run. See the woman who is stalking toward her dog yelling, “I said come here now!” See the dog getting lower to the ground and trying to get closer to her? Even maybe some kissing and groveling when she catches up? Did she hit it when she got to it or did the dog go to her, low posture and tail wagging? Some dogs just up and run away, maybe to another person or another dog or off on their own. “Catch me if you can, you scary person.” or “Protect me, please. Please don’t let her hurt me.”

There is a huge difference between being relaxed and trying to relax those around you. When a dog isn’t comfortable or relaxed he is trying to get everyone else to relax and calm himself as well. See all that lip licking, flicking the tongue in and out? The ears? The mouth? The whole body is often tense and low to the ground. The eyes, mouth and tongue are relaxed with no tension on a calm and relaxed and happy dog.

Have you ever seen a dog chase and catch a cat or a small animal, maybe a mouse or a toad? (I have video of a toad and a dog, I’ll post it). Most dogs don’t kill instantly, prey drive kicks in and they love the chase. Dogs with prey drive love the game of chase to catch their prey. Watch the prey, no matter the species of predator and prey, they react pretty much the same way. Watch animal planet, the wild animals, same thing. They try to get away fast and if they can’t, they try to fight. If the predator still doesn’t back off, they may try to make the predator think they are friendly, even to nosing and snuggling with the predator. If that doesn’t work, they give up. They say uncle. They quit moving. They stop. A rabbit will freeze and maybe even let the predator snuggle or “play” with it, hoping that the dog will lose interest because it’s no fun any more. “Please let me go, I am afraid of you and I want to live.”

Some prey pretend that they are dead, like the toad. And most of the time, unless the dog is hunting for food, these giving up behaviors stop the predator from attacking and killing, even to walking away because the prey is no fun any more. It’s why we teach children not to run from dogs. Remember stop and act like a tree? Dogs love the game of predator and prey, if it doesn’t run away, it’s just not that much fun any more. And when they become the prey, they know how that game of life is played.

Dogs who become the prey, do the same things their prey does to survive. They try to get away first and when they can’t, they try to fight back. When they don’t have the alternative of fighting back, the predator and it’s gang (TV cameras and the people behind them) make it hard to think you could win a fight against so many. The people who love the dog the most are standing by watching it happen, they are not helping the dog. What is the dog supposed to do? He is entirely on his own and has to survive by his own wits. A dog who knows that he has become the prey tries first to get away, then to fight. When that doesn’t work he may touch the predator with his nose or lick or even touch with his body, and if that’s not enough to stop the predator, the dog shuts down, he gives in. He pretends that he is weak, he is not something that anyone would want to hurt. He quits.

Remember when you yelled at your dog for eating your shoe or pooping on the floor? What did she do? She tried to move away which didn’t work because you were intent on catching her. Some dogs bite at this point, she’s moving away, you’re reaching for her. Most dogs just get as close to the floor as they can and then try to get as close to you as they can, kissing you and getting close to your body. Wagging the tail, “See I don’t mean any harm.” You thought she was trying to make up to you for the shoe or the poop or thought she was acting guilty, didn’t you? Nope, none of those things. She just doesn’t want you to kill her, whatever you’re mad about. That’s just about it. You were the predator, she was the prey. She does not want to be hurt and you are acting like you are going to hurt her. The lesson that you have just taught her is, if she totally gives up to you that maybe you won’t hurt her. Or maybe you will if you spanked her for the misdeeds or rubbed her nose in it after you caught her. There is no fun or trust in submission.

Watch the TV show again. This time pretend that Cesar is the predator and the dog is his prey. See him as the cat and the dog as the mouse. (Did you know that a mouse under attack will stand up on it’s hind legs and roar like a lion just before it jumps to attack it’s predator?) Or better yet, see him as the human who is is preying on a dog. The dog is the prey. Oh come on, you can do it, you were going to watch any way. Use your imagination, give me a few minutes to prove a point. What do you see?

The Horse Whisperer will tell you that he is the predator and the horse is the prey and uses much the same methods with the horses. You become the predator in close quarters, the horse is fenced in and does not have room to get away so he stops moving away from you. I grew up on ranches and trained horses, I know this works with them.

The difference is, horses are prey animals. Prey for anything that might want to kill them. They eat grass and hay and grain. A horse will never be a predator. That same thing that happens with horses does not work with dogs. Dogs are predators, not prey. Predators can become prey, depending on who is hunting them. When they are treated like prey, they tend not to bounce back from the fear of it. They aren’t born as prey, making them act like prey breaks their spirit. It’s why fighting dogs have such a hard time coming out of that life. One dog is trained by a human to prey on another dog. They simply aren’t meant to be prey. It messes up their heads and their hearts.

It’s hard to explain the body language in an email. Do check it out and see what I’m talking about. Watch some of those older Cesar TV shows, yes, they’ll be in reruns forever I’d guess. Watch the dogs, they do not want to be near the TV star and they choose not to get close of their own accord. If he was communicating and talking to them in their own language why do they choose to keep their distance? Why don’t they seek him out during or at the end of the show? The only times you’ll see the dog he’s just “fixed” touching the star’s body is when the dog is on a leash being pulled closer or so dead tired that he can’t get away.

See for yourself. Get Calming Signals and The Language of Dogs or watch the animal planet. These are two of the best dog body language helps out there and animal planet shows film where the animals are doing what they naturally do, predator or prey. Know what a dog is saying as he becomes the prey and then watch the show again.

There, that’s better than my rant on the subject of people who don’t know what they are doing killing their dogs with the methods used on the TV show. Again, you who love Cesar Millan, he’s told you a thousand times not to do what he does because he knows it will hurt your dog and it makes for “good” TV. Please take his advice and don’t do it to your dog. Some of you might get lucky with your sweet dogs and they’ll forgive you your craziness but the others will be biting and fearful for the rest of their lives, no matter how long that might be. Killing a dog for doing what you’re teaching it just doesn’t seem fair to me at all.

An again, I’ve recently seen Cesar working with positive trainers who use positive methods including some with treats and clickers. I’m glad to see it happen.

Darcie

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Dear Darcie, Another opinion piece from a person who sounds like they haven’t actually seen Cesar Millan in action. Sigh. Man, this ignorance gets old.

(Didn’t leave his name, we’ll call him Writer. Most people who love Cesar won’t leave their names. I don’t know why.)

Dear Writer,

It’s easy to like Cesar. I understand your love for him. The producers knew you would love him, that’s why they made him a star. The show has every element of a successful advertiser backed TV show. It starts with a huge problem, someone may get hurt. Oh, no! Moves to solving the problem with highs and lows and tension (mostly the dog’s tension), much of what really happens falls on the editing room floor, you don’t get to see that part. Then miraculously the problem is solved. And it’s all done with soft voices and charisma that pull you in and make you feel good. Wow, that was a great show. I learned so much. The TV guys know exactly what they are doing to get you hooked and believing. Then they make money because you support their advertisers.

The disclaimers over and over throughout the show “DO NOT DO THIS AT HOME” are there for a reason. Cesar and the producers know what they do on TV shouldn’t be copied by the viewer at home, they tell you that. Over and over they tell you that. You love and trust him, right? So why don’t you believe him when he tells you not to do these things at home? Do you believe for one second that if Cesar thought he was showing you how to treat your own dog at home without a professional’s help, that he would encourage you to do this daily with your dog? Of course he would. It would be a service to you. But he tells you “Don’t do it.” You love him. Trust him. Take his advice. Don’t do it at home.

The problem is that not everyone who watches the show heeds Cesar’s own warning. They do this to their dogs and they wind up with dogs who don’t trust them any more. And dogs who bite.

In the older shows especially, watch the dog’s body language instead of the man. You’ll see a whole different show. I don’t understand why you find force a better way than positive training. A love of dogs keeps me on the dog’s side. Like I said in my most recent article, Cesar has started to work with positive trainers and is beginning to turn around to more positive training. I’m happy to see it. When he does that completely, I’ll back him, too. I’m pretty sure he’ll lose the show when it happens. People want to see danger, tension, toughness on TV. “Good” money making TV isn’t dull old happy positive training with the same or better lasting results.

You allude to the fact that you’ve seen him in action. When did you see him in action? It’s pretty hard to get behind the scenes of that TV show and inside the “compound”. I’m impressed that you could. Tell us what you saw? Leave your name next time so we know you’re for real and not just one of those guys who likes to comment to hurt someone else’s feelings and then go hide. Speak up. If you have something to say, say it. Be brave. Share your experience with the world. You could do some good.

I’m just guessing that you’re a man, you didn’t leave a name as a clue. I find it interesting that it’s mostly men who write to me to support the TV show. Don’t you find that interesting? In general, it’s mostly men who like the idea of the alpha roll, too.

And I’m curious. What do you do for a living?

Thanks for the comment.

Darcie