The Dish by Darcy

Training Tips, Opinions, and the SitStay Dogs

Alpha Roll

with 3 comments

Dear Darcie, I alpha rolled one of dogs three times last week and another one time and it didn’t help. It seems to have made things worse between me and my dogs instead of better. I wanted them to know that they have to listen to me and do what I want because I’m the pack leader. Now when I reach out to pet their faces, they duck. They’ve never done that before. The second one won’t let me touch him any more. Did I do the alpha roll wrong? Anthony

Men like the idea of the alpha roll but rarely have good success with it. I don’t get many questions about it from women.

Anthony, your dogs don’t trust your hands any more. I’ve helped other guys, let’s see if I can help you. I’ve used a lot of people referenced situations in this post. That might seem odd, other trainers would try to get you to understand the dog’s world. I’ve found, especially with men and boys, that sometimes it’s easier to understand their dogs by knowing how they would feel if it happened to them. I’ve helped a lot of guys turn their mistrusting dogs into trusting dogs. I hope this helps you, too. It means so much to me that you get your dogs back into your good graces.

Look, we as people know that a dog is a dog. A different species than us. Right? We know that because it’s obvious that we are different. Dogs are different than we are. I’m pretty sure that no matter how “dominant” a dog could get in his “pack”, we’re not going to vote him in as President of the United States.

Our dogs know this very important thing, too. Your dogs know that you are not a dog. I’m completely certain that your dogs did not get together and decide that you can’t be their President, their “pack leader”. Why do I know that? They don’t have opposable thumbs. They can’t make the copy machine work to print banners and flyers for the election. They don’t have millions of dollars to spend on TV commercials to run a smear campaign against you. They don’t gather in the bathroom and talk bad about you. They don’t elect leaders. They’re dogs. They didn’t decide together that you are not their leader or their friend. They decided it one by one as you hurt them or lost their trust.

The ideas that a person could truly be the pack leader of dogs and alpha rolls were started by people. To sell books most probably. That kind of stuff usually is seated in money to be made. If my history is correct, the “pack leader” was based on what wolves did in a wolf pack, then that idea was sold to humans to deal with their dogs. The idea was that wolves are the same as domestic dogs. But today we know so much more about wolves and about dogs and how they commune. And how they commune with us. Some of it was true but the alpha roll part was made up. Or maybe the guy who was supposed to watch that day didn’t have a quick enough eye to see what was really happening during an “alpha roll”. If you’ve spent any time at all with more than three dogs, the idea of a pack leader kind of goes out the window.

I’ve had dogs living with me who loved each other very much, all about the same age. They were about as much of a pack as me and my sisters. Dogs don’t really run in packs any more than me and my sisters do, they are basically individual scavengers when left to their own devices. My sisters and I get together a few times a year and terrorize…well, we don’t terrorize any more…but in the old days maybe we terrorized the town a little just to have some fun. We packed into a dance or a cafe or a store and laughed and ate and drank together. We walked down the street laughing and carrying on, now there’s terror for you if you didn’t know us. Who was the leader? Ask any of us and I’m pretty sure we’d tell you it was our oldest sister. Why would she be the leader? Because she makes us feel good about ourselves. She pets us and coos to us that we were so cute when we were little, that she’s happy to be with us. But do we follow her everywhere? Do we follow her home? Does she lead us down the street while we’re walking? Does she find the food? No. We take turns walking with each other, shop at different places in the same store, we buy our own meals. We go to the bathroom alone…most of the time. My point is, although one of us is looked at by the others as the “leader”, it’s out of respect and love. She makes us feel good about ourselves. It’s not because she pounded us into the ground and made herself the leader although if I remember right, she had a really good pinch in our early adolescent days. But she didn’t make herself the leader in our adult years. I can only imagine how that would have gone over. Ha! Me, follow someone who demands that I follow them? Not in this lifetime.

Just today I was watching my four dogs. Two old dogs and two young dogs, one just a puppy of almost five months. They get along fine most of the time. They do eat together, side by side. Who is the pack leader at my house? Not the oldest girl. She could care less if the other old dog and the puppies follow her around. She loves to sit on the deck and watch, it’s her most prized thing to do aside from sticking her head into holes where a dog’s head shouldn’t be. Not the other old girl. She likes the other dogs but she loves her ball. Not the older of the puppies, 6 months. He loves to explore and play and doesn’t care if any of them go with him. Not the puppy, she just wants to play with whoever will play with her and chase a ball, too. She loves that.

So who is the pack leader at our house? Not any of the dogs. Me? Kent? I do the training and I use all the loves above to get what I want so the dogs love to be around me. We have fun. Kent does the playing, he’s one of them. He watches, throws a ball, explores, and plays some more and they love him for it. Who do the dogs follow when we go walking? Me and Kent or one or the other. They go out a ways on their own but they come back, we set the general direction. Why? Not because we alpha roll them or beat them into submission. No. It’s because we do the things that make them feel good. We give them a feeling. A feeling of peace and well being.

Why do the dogs come inside the house when we call them? They like it outside. Why do they go outside the house when we call them? They like it in the house. Why do they come when we call them? They like what they are doing over there. Why do they choose to come and sit with us or go walking with us? They don’t have to. They could stiffen their legs and refuse to be dragged along for a walk. They could bite us instead of lick us. They could kill us and take over the house. They have the teeth for it. They could take the remote away from us just by showing us their teeth if they wanted to. Oliver and Frankie watch TV, that’s why I mention that. So far, thank Goodness, they like the same shows we do. They don’t have to eat our food, we live in the wild with rabbits and mice and birds. We have a lake so they can get a drink whenever they want to. They don’t depend on us to keep breathing. So why do they choose to live with us? Why do they follow us?

It’s really very simple why they choose to be with us. The dogs who live with us do it because they like being around us. We make life fun for them. If there really is a “pack leader” at all, it’s the one who makes you feel good about yourself.

I talked to a homeless man and watched his dog. We sat and ate together in the park. The man shared his food with the dog. They were both hungry and hadn’t eaten for days. What kept the dog at the man’s side when there was no food? It wasn’t that the man alpha rolled the dog and became the leader or had food for him to entice him to stay. The man was kind to the dog. The dog liked being with the man. That’s why the dog followed him.

A leader who hurts his followers doesn’t have loyal followers. Think about an alpha roll like this. High school wrestling. Two guys rolling around to see who can wind up on top. When one wins, he feels pretty good about that. But what about the other guy? Humiliated in front of his peers if he has low self esteem. Simply feeling bad about not winning if he has normal self esteem. Vowing to get even if he’s too vain and a poor sport. But the real question is, did the winner win the loser’s devotion with dominance? Did the guy that lost go sit with the guy who beat him? No. Why not? Because it doesn’t work that way. Not in the human world and not in the dog world. Not for long anyway. Anyone can make you do something if you let them but none of us are geared to take it for long without a bad ending.

If it’s true that dominance is the key to having followers, why didn’t that guy follow the guy who just pinned him against the mat? They’ll see each other a few times this year and the one who loses will not like that the other guy shows up at the next meet…if the other guy always wins.

A father holds his son up against a wall. Holds him there, pushing him into the wall. Maybe the father is yelling. His face is red. The veins on his neck are popping out. The father’s hands are hard and muscular. They are clenched into fists. The son does not fight back. What has the son learned? Aside from all the emotional stuff, the son has learned that his father can hurt him with his hands. If father lifts his hand to his son’s head, maybe a gentle touch to his hair, from now on the son will duck. Even if it’s just for a moment,  in his heart, the unfairness, the disappointment, the fear, will be there.

But we’re not dogs. Right? Right. We’re not dogs. Here’s something for you. Dogs don’t do alpha rolls. Wolves don’t either. It’s a myth. It’s a fabrication to sell books. Watch a wolf show, a real one, not a hollywood movie. Watch your own dogs or dogs in the park. The dog on the bottom took a fall long before the dog on the top rolled him. The dog on the bottom chose to let the other dog on top. I know some of you won’t believe me until you see it for yourself over and over again. That’s the way it is with myths. It’s why Myth Busters is so popular. It helps us change our beliefs. We want to change or we wouldn’t watch that show.

You can’t be the “leader” unless they want you to be. You can’t be a leader unless someone will follow you, no matter what species you are or what combination of species you have in your pack.

Leaders who give something to their followers are the leaders who are most strongly followed, religiously. And it’s not money or food the followers are after. It’s a feeling.

So here’s the help. Forgive yourself. Stop trying to be a dog and stop beating your dogs feelings up. You are not a dog. Have fun with them, feed them by hand, teach them some tricks with positive clicker training and they’ll come back around to you. Food and treats are used to help open the lines of communication between you and your dogs. The good feelings are what will keep them with you.

Dogs do have hierarchies just like people do. I believe that. I don’t know how that’s decided, maybe we’ll know some day. Some dogs do let another dog go first, some want to go first. That doesn’t make the first one the leader, it just means that in that dynamic at that particular time, someone has to go through the door first. Heck, maybe it’s just manners. Or the lack of them.

I wrestle with my dogs. I let them get me down, then I get them down, just like they play with each other. It’s fun. I never fear that they are going to “dominate” me or want to be my pack leader. They do just about anything I want just about anytime I ask them to. That’s more than I can ask of anybody.

Hands are for feeding, pushing in play wrestling, petting, taking stickers out, throwing balls, opening doors. All the things that dogs love.

Hands are not for spanking, pinching, slapping, and alpha rolls. Those things cause fear and bad feelings. Fear and bad feelings cause distrust.

If there really is such a thing as a “pack leader” with dogs, it’s the one who is the most fun to be with. Watch the dogs, they’ll tell you that time and time again.

Who is your “pack”? Who influences you? Why do you choose muscle over kindness? Choose those who you will follow wisely. Or you may find that nobody wants you to lead. Maybe they won’t even let you pet them.

(If you have made your dogs truly aggressive or fearful with your actions up to now and you fear that you will be bitten by play wrestling with your dogs, don’t do it. Find a professional to help you. Do not alpha roll a dog. An aggressive or fearful dog will bite you if you push him to it.)

Written by Darcie

June 10, 2009 at 10:17 pm

3 Responses

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  1. Very insightful, thank you.

    Christie

    June 16, 2009 at 10:12 am

  2. [The only pecking order in chickens I ever observed, and I had plenty of opportunity, was when one chicken was down and lame, the other chickens pecked her to death. They were truly like dinosaurs to a kid. Darcie]

    It is worth remembering – again – that wild wolves do NOT have “alpha leaders,” there is not a “struggle for dominance” in wild wolf packs/families, and this entire assumption that canines have “hierarchy” has less than zero support from real, peer-reviewed ethological research.

    Dr. David Mech, who was an early believer in the “alpha myth” in wild wolves, has spent decades refuting his earlier errors in assuming something when the evidence wasn’t there. (Snip) Dr. Mech explicitly acknowledging his error in spreading the “alpha wolf” myth – and calling on others to stop repeating it as if it were factual: (Snip)

    Darcie gets it right, not just for domestic dogs but for pretty much every social mammal thus studied: insofar as there are “leaders” of social groups, that leadership is based on trust, respect, and competence. Not power, “alpha,” or fear. Same is true of humans, actually – the exceptions to that rule are what we remember (Tito, Franco, etc.) but in truth healthy social human groups have leaders that are trusted and respected and valued – not feared.

    The best thing to do with the entire “alpha” nonsense is to actively reject it, every time you hear it repeated. It is WRONG – this isn’t an “opinion” it is proven, verified scientific fact. Even the people who first popularized it now explicitly state they were 100% wrong. Further, remember that whole “pecking order” thing with chickens? They have a pecking order, right? A hierarchy. Turns out THAT is 100% wrong as well – observer bias, long since overthrown by the actual people who actually study the ethology of domestic birds.

    Learning to live in positive, effective, safe, reliable family groupings that include canines and humans isn’t easy – and realizing that “alpha dominance” is pure myth won’t magically solve all “problems” in teaching humans to interact with dogs. Still, getting rid of the known-to-be-wrong “facts” is a heck of a goof start, isn’t it?

    Exitpoint

    August 31, 2009 at 4:25 pm

  3. Re the chickens, unfortunately that “kill the injured one” instinct seems to be really common across a wide range of species – including dogs. I still haven’t figured out the evolutionary driver that caused it, and I’m actively searching for insight on it because it’s so contrary to so many other social behaviors in so many species.

    However, that mystery aside, the whole concept of “pecking order” hinges on there being a fixed, consistent, always-contested hierarchy that can only change when one animal “defeats” another and “pushes them down the ladder.” It’s not supposed to be just random conflict, but rather a systematic, ever-present, rigid structure of _absolute_ hierarchy. One animal is “top,” and there is a monotonically-decreasing line down to the “bottom” animal.

    That is the form of “pecking order” that has been comprehensively debunked. In fact, your own observations echo what the avian researchers discovered: what they DID see is a sharp increase in essentially random, unpredictable violence between domestic chickens as more and more chickens were locked in smaller and smaller spaces.

    Without the room to negotiate social interactions using distance – instead of violence – the chicken social systems broke down until it was basically a free-for-all. Early researchers assumed both that this was “natural” (not a result of extreme confinement) and rigidly structured – they were wrong on both counts. When Konrad Lorenz popularized the “pecking order” despite a lack of real research supporting it, the concept grew legs and took off all on its own from there (a classic example of a “cultural meme”). I suspect it resonated so well with humans because, unlike most other types of social mammals, some primate species do have somewhat more of an intrinsic hierarchical structure in their wild state (thinking of de Waal’s research with chimpanzee social structures).

    Similarly, early wolf researchers mostly “studies” wolf social structures by taking a pen with a bunch of unrelated wolves locked in it and then adding a new, unknown, unrelated wolf into this unstable social mix. Sure enough, almost always there’d be a massive violent eruption when this new wolf was thrown into the storm: researchers falsely concluded this was “natural” and was related to forming a “pecking order.” It wasn’t – it’s just the sort of random violence we see in many species when too many unfamiliar individuals are locked in too small a space. Ask anyone who has done some time in prison, and they’ll understand all too well that humans react the same way.

    Needless to say, taking this erroneous finding about imprisoned wolves and “applying” it to dogs is error taken to the power of error. Domesticated dogs – however dissimilar to wolves they may be – are rarely housed in unstable, shifting, highly-confined environments. Thus, assuming they will resort to systemic, merciless, within-family violence to “establish a pecking order” is utterly pathological! At best, it’s just wrong and useless. However, more often it ends up being self-fulfilling – people expect dogs to be violent to their friends and family/pack members and when a dog does that (we call it “being an a#$(*ole” in our family) they tolerate it. The way a healthy social group tolerates needless obnoxious behavior is to tell that person that NO, it’s not ok to be violent to your friends for no reason. That’s all: no. It doesn’t take violence in return, or “alpha rolls” (or tuna rolls, for that matter ;-) , or anything fancy to teach someone good manners. It takes setting an EXAMPLE of good manners, and setting high enough expectations to encourage other folks to step up, instead of sliding down.

    I find it funny how much argument there is about whether “alpha-based training” is ethically acceptable, or not. That bridge need not be crossed because, in truth, it’s completely wrong-headed from the foundation up. Like arguing about whether we should paint the moon green or blue, it’s somewhat silly to engage in such circular non-progress.

    Exitpoint

    August 31, 2009 at 11:49 pm


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